[Snort-devel] IDS fingerprinting techniques & Snort's FlexRe sponse...

agetchel at ...358... agetchel at ...358...
Tue Aug 21 17:17:18 EDT 2001


Greetings!
	Of course slowing down packet generation is a bad thing, especially
when trying to win packet races.  I'm concerned that this change would
effect the reliability of Snort's FlexResponse, but will of course do
vigorous testing after I make the change tonight.  Thanks for the code
snippit.

Thanks,
Abe

Abe L. Getchell - Security Engineer
Division of System Support Services
Kentucky Department of Education
Voice   502-564-2020 ext. 225
E-mail  agetchel at ...358...
Web     http://www.kde.state.ky.us/


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Smith, Donald [mailto:Donald.Smith at ...530...]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 4:40 PM
> To: 'agetchel at ...358...'; Smith, Donald ; tliston at ...621...
> Cc: snort-devel at lists.sourceforge.net; 'tliston at ...621...'
> Subject: RE: [Snort-devel] IDS fingerprinting techniques & Snort's
> FlexRe sponse...
> 
> 
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> Tom Liston's the author and was planning on a new release soon.
> 
> Contact him for the NEW version.
> tliston at ...621...
> 
> The old version is probably still here.
> http://www.threenorth.com/LaBrea
> 
> And yes a list of valid webservers is given so that LaBrea can ignore
> those port 80 -> valid web server packets.
> 
> TTL = 63 + (int) ( 192 * rand()/(RAND_MAX+1.0) ) 
> 
> will give you a psuedo random number between 64 and 255.
> 
> Of course don't to forget to seed your random number generator ( ONLY
> 1
> time) before using this.
> 
> Having shown you to do a "random" ttl realize random number
> generation is expensive and WILL slow down any 
> application that uses it. 
> 
> Donald.Smith at ...530... IP Engineering Security
> 303-226-9939/0688 Office/Fax
> 720-320-1537 cell
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: agetchel at ...358... [mailto:agetchel at ...358...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:24 PM
> > To: Donald.Smith at ...530...; tliston at ...621...
> > Cc: snort-devel at lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: RE: [Snort-devel] IDS fingerprinting techniques & Snort's
> > FlexRe sponse...
> > 
> > 
> > Greetings!
> > 	I'll work on some code to try and do this efficiently in
> > FlexResponse tonight, unless of course someone doesn't beat 
> > me to the punch.
> 
> > Anywho, just out of curiosity (and kind of off-topic for this 
> > list), how
> > does one identify a SYN coming in on port 80 that shouldn't 
> > be there?  Would
> > it be positioned much like an IDS, check a list of valid web 
> > servers that
> > has been predefined, and send a SYN-ACK out to anything that it
> > sees a packet destined for that doesn't exist?  I did a search for
> > this tool on-line, and didn't come up with anything.  If you have
> > any 
> > pointers to
> > where I can read more about it, I would love to see 'em.  Oh, 
> > and you don't
> > want to know what kind of companies reside on "LaBrea" street in
> > some cities... =)
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Abe
> > 
> > Abe L. Getchell - Security Engineer
> > Division of System Support Services
> > Kentucky Department of Education
> > Voice   502-564-2020 ext. 225
> > E-mail  agetchel at ...358...
> > Web     http://www.kde.state.ky.us/
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Smith, Donald [mailto:Donald.Smith at ...530...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:09 PM
> > > To: 'Burak DAYIOGLU'; snort-devel at lists.sourceforge.net
> > > Cc: 'tliston at ...621...'
> > > Subject: RE: [Snort-devel] IDS fingerprinting techniques &
> > > Snort's FlexRe sponse...
> > > 
> > > 
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> > > Something like 
> > > TTL = 63 + (int) ( 192 * rand()/(RAND_MAX+1.0) ) 
> > > 
> > > will give you a psuedo random number between 64 and 255.
> > > Of course don't to forget to seed your random number generator (1
> > > time) before using this.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > As for not bothering to send rst or icmp these methods do work
> > > for many of the tools that
> > > are currently being used to scan our networks. 
> > > 
> > > LaBrea by Tom Liston [tliston at ...621...] is currently 
> > being used to
> > > SLOW down the infection rate of the code red worm.
> > > It sends syn/ack for every syn it sees that it shouldn't be
> > > seeing.  
> > > 
> > > Until all hackers use prefected tools active defense works.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Donald.Smith at ...530... IP Engineering Security
> > > 303-226-9939/0688 Office/Fax
> > > 720-320-1537 cell
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Burak DAYIOGLU [mailto:dayioglu at ...287...]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 1:07 AM
> > > > To: snort-devel at lists.sourceforge.net
> > > > Subject: Re: [Snort-devel] IDS fingerprinting techniques &
> > > > Snort's FlexResponse...
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > agetchel at ...358... wrote:
> > > > > traceroute into your network and determines that he's ten  
> > > > hops away from
> > > > > your border router, and receives packets which are 
> > > > resetting his connection
> > > > > that have a TTL of fifty-four (a TTL of sixty-four minus 
> > > > ten hops for the
> > > > > packet to get to you) then he knows that the IDS is sitting 
> > > > on the other
> > > > > side of your border router.  If he bypasses those 
> > > > countermeasures, and is
> > > > > still getting resets from a Snort box placed deep within 
> > > > your network, he
> > > > > can tell how far into your environment you have your second 
> > > > tier IDS placed.
> > > > > An attacker knowing your IDS placement is "bad thing".
> > > > 
> > > > Dynamic routing may result in different TTL's counted at each 
> > > > time especially
> > > > when the distance increases.
> > > > 
> > > > Your arguments are true. Counting TTLs to measure exact 
> > > > distance is not
> > > > generally accepted, which is one thing I hate.
> > > > 
> > > > Gateway systems decrease TTL "at least by one" depending on 
> > > > the time it takes
> > > > to process the packet. Still, I argue that exact TTL counting 
> > > > should work because
> > > > the processing power of ordinary gateway equipment has 
> > > > improved so much that it
> > > > ALWAYS takes less than a second.
> > > > 
> > > > Exact TTL counting cannot be used to measure distances in the 
> > > > Internet (because
> > > > of the existance of dynamic routing), but it is possible for 
> > > > an IDS to measure
> > > > its distance to hosts on the protected domain.
> > > > 
> > > > If an IDS can measure its distance from a protected host, it 
> > > > cannot be fooled
> > > > any more by TTL games (see Ptacek and Newsham for explanation 
> > > > of the game).
> > > > 
> > > > Any counter-arguments to this suggestion? Measuring distances 
> > > > between the NIDS
> > > > and the protected hosts is easy if one has a passive 
> > > > fingerprint plug-in with
> > > > a good database of fingerprints. (I have one :)
> > > > 
> > > > >         Would it be a better solution to have Snort 
> > > > randomly generate the
> > > > > TTL of the packet when using FlexResponse?  Say to a number 
> > > > between 64 and
> > > > > 255?  This would at least keep the attacker guessing about 
> > > > where your IDS is
> > > > 
> > > > Sending RST's or ICMP errors back to the attacker is 
> > > > meaningless. A skilled
> > > > attacker can easily discard such packets and attempt to 
> > > > continue processing.
> > > > It is best to send such active-response packets to the 
> > > > protected domain
> > > > only to close the protected-end of the communication. 
> > > > However, we know that
> > > > there are many people doing the reverse thing so I find your 
> > > > proposition
> > > > appropriate. Dynamically changing response packet properties
> > > > with some randomness should be an easy trick for Marty.
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > -- 
> > > > Burak DAYIOGLU
> > > > Phone: +90 312 2103379   Fax: +90 312 2103333
> > > >        http://www.dayioglu.net
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Snort-devel mailing list
> > > > Snort-devel at lists.sourceforge.net
> > > > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/snort-devel
> > > > 
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> > 
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